NetNews Offline 2/NetNews Offline Volume 2.iso/news/comp/sys/amiga/misc-part1/3444

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Path: tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!demon!hchworth.demon.co.uk
From: Paul Chan <paul>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.misc
Subject: Re: The March Amiga?
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 10:43:38 GMT
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[e-mail] (Gary Alan Peake) wrote:
>>>And is this not what Amiga Technologies is doing? Upgrading the initial
>>>product and keeping it aimed at the same, first time buyers?
>>
>>They didn`t upgrade the A1200. And they released it at 100UK pounds above it`s
>>last known price. To many UK owners it was *300* UK pounds above it`s last
>>known price, since Currys and Dixons blew out their stocks for just 99-199 UK
>>pounds (depending on region) in the final days of the Amiga as we knew it. OK,
>>it was probably cost or below cost, but they were clearing the shelves for the
>>consoles - and many of us (including me) missed the chance to snap them up at
>>bargain prices. That could be one of the reasons that the A1200 didn`t take
>>well in the UK. The other being the high price, and limited distribution, and
>>zero advertising, etc etc etc etc (until you are sick of me saying the same
>>three things)
>
>So, now you're mad at Amiga Technologies because you missed out on the
>bargain basement sell-out. Thought it would never come back and didn't want
>to 'waste' that money? Now, it's back and you're mad as hell cause you feel

HA! I kicked my self at the time because I went to all my local stores in a 10
miles radius and all they had left were empty boxes. They had even sold the
display models!!! I would definately have bought an A1200 at the time, for that
price. Evidently, a lot of people thought so too, because they sold out. I
personally put a lot of people at I-Amiga (bit.listserv.i-amiga) on the alert
and a few of my British compatriots went out and bought bargain A1200`s.

>taken. You took yourself! And you are probably sick of me saying this, BUT
>Amiga Technologies wasn't your typical 'start-up' company. They bought the
>rights and patents to a few hundred boxes of parts scattered and, in some
>cases, held hostage for moneys owed. With a small band of dedicated, hard
>working people, Amiga Technologies got the parts to the production
>facilities, sourced other needed parts, made almost every computer show in
>the world, released press releases that no one printed, battled idiots on
>the nets who haven't 'approved' of any move they've made yet, and still
>managed to get product to market in the fastest time of almost any company
>(in the same situation) in the world.

And they need Dean Stockwell to make the leap home, I suppose ;)
If they don`t have any critics, they can do what the hell they like with "Yes"
men like you egging them on. They need some criticisim, even if it`s not
construcive, to remind them of the things WE want, even if it`s not all
reasonable. They *will* find good ideas in there somehwre, even if they don`t
choose to implement them. Besides, without US, your existence is meaningless...
;)

>
>Part of the problem is the number of people who have never taken Economics
>101! You NEVER sell a product for less than the market will bring unless you
>are stupid or too filthy rich to be in business in the first place. The name
>of the game is 'maximize profits' which Escom has done very well at in the
>past. None of us know what the 'real' cost is to Amiga Technologies for the
>products they are delivering. BUT, it isn't cheaper for them than it was for
>C= when they were going bankrupt and already had supplies handy for
>production.

Ahem, Nintendo, Sony, Sega - need I go on? They sell products for approaching
cost prices and make their profits out of software. At the low end, the Amiga
cannot compete as a games machine in the face of the POWER of the PSX, at the
LOW PRICE, and the EXCELLENT MARKETING IMAGE of the PSX - pick out the key
words Big Bird. They obviously ignore the price of the software, but once
someone has the hardware, what else are they going to do? It`s the same idea
with their Black Box (or should be) - Sell it at near cost, and make people pay
through an Internet deal for 10 UK pounds per month. Guaranteed.

>
>Amiga Technologies would also be ignorant to say today 'just wait a few
>months and the price will drop'. We all know what would happen.

Yes, quite right, but at the moment, they will have to drop prices sooner or
leter, since their new price structure of the moment is becomeing rapidly
obvious. It seems that many people in the know are waiting for the price drop
anyway, and not many perople NOT in the know don`t know anyway due to ZERO
marketing, and no show in the showrooms.

>
>It's time for us to 'get real' and take each step for what it is. We need to
>quit looking for some conspiracy afloat in the Amiga Technologies camp to
>'rape and pillage us'. We need to quit calling the computer 'crap' and start
>making positive and constructive suggestions. If I impugned your work or
>Eric's ... either of you would be fighting mad!! BUT, it's ok to tell Dr
>Kittle and Gilles Bourdin that 'we' think they are out to rob us, that what
>they are pushing is 'crap', and that 'we' could care less about trying to
>help get the Amiga back into the limelight it once held.

I`ve said before, what they are pushing is indeed not crap. The price makes it
crap, if you like. OK, economically speaking, there may be a reason for this,
but AT shouldn`t and haven`t got the sales they expected at this price. OK Mr.
Economics, Something isn`t selling as expected at the price you set. What do
you do? Do you want to go for "double jeopardy" on that?

>
>You can call me an 'apologist', a 'yes-man', or anything else that you'd
>like. I always view the source of expletives and consider that using them
>somehow makes some people feel bigger. For a positive view of what I'm
>talking about, look at Eric's replies to George!!

I don`t remember seeing it. Maybe I did, but I tend to delete expletives if I
can. I have a bigger thesaurus than you think ;)

>
>>First time buyers do not buy computers on the basis of what is best. They look
>>at the adverts, the blurb, then they go into the shops. Then they buy a PC
>>becaue their mate said the Amiga is dead, overpriced, crap, etc.
>
>This may be true for some, but MANY people are 'impulse buyers'. I bought my
>first A500 on a lark. Was walking thru a shopping center and saw a ball
>bouncing on a screen in a Software,Etc store. Went in, played a little, and
>took the thing home. Even being a long time C64, C128, etc fanatic ... I did
>not make the C= connection until I took everything out of the box at home!

No. "Impulse" buys are now reserved for the Superconsole because they are
cheaper, more wide ranged in the shops, and have a larger public image. I knew
about the Amiga for months before I got one, I even bought the first 7 issues
of Amiga Computing (UK) before I got one to make sure I was getting a good deal
for my money. I didn`t have enough cash to consider the A500 I got as a "lark"
- I had to save up for a fair few weeks before I could afford my A500 (being a
bit young at the time ;) - and 400 UK pounds isn`t an impulse buy. 199-299
maybe, but certainly not 399.


>>>Or, is it a case of getting rid of the excess baggage?
>>
>>What excess baggage do you mean?
>
>The blokes who rallied against them in the bidding war for C=.

Then why did they take on AT UK staff only to fire them later. Not a very good
PR stunt to encourage optimisim in long-time Amiga enthusiasts is it?

>
>>>T.V. ads and magazine ads and interviews don't count as marketing? I read
>>>here that Gilles was seen on tv? I saw interviews in some of the Amiga mags?
>>
>>Not in the UK, mate, and that was only 1 show, you can`t expect everyone in th
>e
>>country to be tuning in to Komputer Klub (or whatever that Belgian program was
>>called) - And Interviews in Amiga mags don`t exactly get read by newbies do
>>they?
>
>Yes, they do! Do YOU read any PC mags? Nuff said!!

Yes, occasionally. I get/read over 18 magazines a month. Most of them Amiga,
some Internet, a couple of games mags (edge, and maybe an odd PSX title), and
several non-computing sport mags. And I don`t think the average PC user has
anything to fear until a PC mag starts to say, "Oh Sh*t, look at the Amiga xxxx
-it`s got a chipset as powerful as the Diamond Stealth 3D and 16-bit
Soundblaster, but only costs 299UK pounds, how the hell so they do that?"

Usually, PC mags will dismiss other platforms, as does any single platform mag.



> If IBM are
>>paying AT for the priveledge, and allowing them to drop the price of the Surfe
>r
>>pack to consumer levels I can live with it. Otherwise, AT should be seriously
>>thinking about setting up AT Internet to supply Amigans worldwide. I`m sure
>>many wuld switch from Demon, or wherever they are if:
>>
>>1) It offered similar prices to what they were paying at, say, Demon.
>
>It should be relatively close.

But I plan to be a heavy user of the internet.
I don`t want to be paying high IBM charges linked through calls to Leeds (25
miles away, not a local call). I`d rather have a flat charge.

>>2) It offered proper support for Amiga, and maybe licensed soemthing Like Thor
>>for general use.
>
>Why Thor?

It looks nice and is an "all-in-one" email/newsreader - something that the
Surefr pack doesn`t seem to have (a newsreader?)

>
>>3) AT made it clear that any profits from AT Internet went straight into R&D.
>
>
>And now, folks, we want to control the profits that Amiga Technologies makes
>too?   :)

Well, us Brits are sick of the large profits from our privatised industries
(gas, water, electricity) going to fat, old chairman who get huge pay
bonuses/increases/retire with 1.5M+ UK pound payoffs /share option cash-ins)
when the bills for the customer keep going up, and the service gets worse.

>
>>e. Too expensive. People don`t care what hoops you had to jump through
>>>>to get it on the street, they won`t pay *more* for a machine which "died" 1
>>>>year ago.
>
>Oh really? Seems that thousands already have?   :)

Thousand HAVEN`T. Remember that AT haven`t reached their target. Fallen rather
short, as I seem to remember - now which reasons could you attribute to that
fact? Is it: PRICE? MARKETING? SPEC? DISTRIBUTION? ESCOM SALES STAFF? THE ESCOM
PC? MICROSOFT?

Pick as many as you like.

>
>
>>>What about inflation? Nothing costs today what it did a year ago!
>>
>>No, PC`s are cheaper (!). The Amiga must be cost reduced - maybe using standar
>d
>>PC parts, starting with 3.5" IDE HDs - and proper HD disk drives.
>
>PC's are being sold just above cost because of the strong competition and
>the flooded market conditions. This is NOT yet the case for the Amiga!

But the Amiga woud have been acceptable at just 100 UK pounds less for many
people. OK there are R&D costs required, but don`t take it out on AGA buyers.
I don`t want to have to go into the myriad reasons why it would have been
better to have a lower price - not least when you go into an Escom shop and
start to compare price/spec, with a helpful unbiased salesman to help you with
your PC purcase ;)

>
>>>>3) Hardware. The disk drive fiasco wasn`t good. For the few Amigans who
>>>>actually thought about getting an A1200, the disk drive problem scared them
>>>>off.

>At the time this was being bandied about, Amiga Technologies was interested
>in getting machines produced. There was no time for any R&D. There was no
>time for 'fixes'. Just get it back into production!!!

Well, now the production boost is over, and AT are left with thousands of
unsold machines which will now become "surfers". Not very nice, is it? And will
the A1200Plus kill off sales of the A1200? Not likely as I believe that it
won`t displace the A1200, it`ll be positioned ABOVE the A1200 in the mid-range
:(.
Yet more low sales in the UK AT, I hope you`re happy :(.


>>>>than actual sales. Why else would they all but ditch the AT UK operational
>>>>staff?
>
>Because they were part of the group that bid against Escom?

Again, I have to ask, why did they hire them in the first place? Because they
expected the sales they were projecting, not just half. I don`t know the real
reason that most of AT UK were fired, but I bet it`s just more cost cutting on
their behalf. AT are desperate not to go into the red, aren`t they?


>How many times will we go thru this? First, everyone here is appalled that
>Amiga Technologies will NOT sell Amiga's thru Escom stores. Then, we are
>appalled that the Escom people don't know anything about the Amiga, yet may
>be selling them. You and Eric can't have it BOTH ways!!!

No, but the customer wins, and walks out of the Escom shop with a PC. Are you
happy? Why else are we going on about this and that? We are reporting things as
we see them, in my case, I go into my local Escom store every weekend and
despair. What experience do you have of Amiga stores at the moment?


>>Youbetcha. In March, when the Surfer pack comes out, we`ll make our mind up. I
>f
>>the Surfer pack is indeed 1200DM, or approx. 600 UK pounds, then IMHO, it`s
>>just too much. They haven`t moved the price of the A1200, they`ve just added
>>the cost of the Surfer pack on top of an A1200. i.e they`ve just fitted the
>>Surfer in with the existing Magic Pack. That`s a bad idea when you consider
>>that a cheap 486/66/100/P60 setup with modem etc is a better bet for surfing
>>than a relatively underpowered A1200 with a high price tag.
>
>Then YOU need to get one!!! I'll fumble along with whatever Amiga
>Technologies gives us. I'd certainly hate to 'cramp your style' any.  :)

No problem. I`ll just keep on going with my A4000 thanks. And I`ll pre-empt
your Mystic Megging by predicting a sales disaster for the Surfer pack by Xmas
96 if it has a March UK price of 600-700 UK pounds. Exactly the price of the
CDTV upon it`s quiet release...


>>>>>If you are looking for a BIG PUSH into North America beginning tomorrow,
>>>>>don't hold your breath. Amiga Technologies has said more than once that it
>>>>>ain't gonna happen that way. The PPC is their inroad into the North America
>n
>>>>>market. THAT competes!!
>>>>
>>>>Not without marketing and a competitive price it doesn`t.
>>>
>>>Why can't we wait till it gets here before we start bitchin'?
>>
>>Um, it`s already here in the UK, and IMHO, it`s a disaster.
>
>Wow!!! You guys have the PPC's in the UK??   :)

Hmm, maybe not ;)

But the price of the PPC will be critical (as with everything else) upon it`s
release. The A1200 is a disaster (just thought I`d slip that in to make sure
everyone understands ;).

>
>>>>Face it, you`re just a Yes man, and I don`t mean you`re a member of a 70`s
>>>>supergroup, even if you liked Rick Wakeman in any way ;)

>>
>>Hmm, Rick Wakeman, who did the music for Microcosm, who was prevenalent in tha
>t
>>super-band of the 70`s that you MUST have heard of -"Yes" the ones with the
>>Roger Dean artwork? Never mind. Too crusty to remember, obviously.
>
>Sorry ... I'm into the Beatles, The Who, The Eagles ... I don't play many
>games on my Amiga.

Man, are you old ;)

>
>>Yes, AT has hired some good people. But their product is not strong enough to
>>sell at the prices they are demanding. I want the Amiga to succeed as much as
>>anyone else, but I`m not in any way interested in buying any of their products
>>at the moment until something comes along that`s WORTH buying...
>
>
>Then don't ... but don't try and stop those who might with all the gloom and
>doom stuff!

Hey I`m going to recommend the COMPUTER which is best for my friends when they
ask me what they should get instead of their little A500, or Spectrum, or Sega,
or whatever. At the moment, the Amiga isn`t very high on that list.

Call it doom and gloom if you like. It`s definately NOT fanaticism, unless some
Garys we could mention ;)